MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
For more on President Trump's relationship with Europe, we're joined by Anne Applebaum. She is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and historian, a staff writer for The Atlantic who's reported from all over the world, and she's with us now. Good morning, Anne.
ANNE APPLEBAUM: Morning.
MARTIN: So what stood out to you in the president's remarks about Europe?
APPLEBAUM: I think what stands out about the national security strategy is that Trump has given up on identifying America's rivals as Russia and China. He's given up on the idea that we play a role in the world to protect democracy, to spread freedom, even to increase prosperity of Americans by arguing for open trade. And instead, he has decided on a policy of undermining and disparaging allies. And I think that's going to prove very dangerous in the long term.
MARTIN: So Trump has criticized Europe before. I mean, in both of his administrations, mainly about what he said was inadequate military spending. How is this different?
APPLEBAUM: Well, first of all, it's different because Europe is spending on the military. And not only that - Europe is now the main supporter, almost sole supporter of the Ukrainians. I mean, all the weapons and money going into Ukraine this year have come from Europe, so that's not a criticism you can make anymore. Civilizational erasure is more of a - it's a far-right idea. I mean, it's actually way to the right of most European far-right parties. It's an idea that Europe is somehow fundamentally intellectually and emotionally and physically flawed and won't survive. And that's a - that's an existential attack that you can't fix by, you know, spending more on weapons or by having a better diplomatic relationship or by flattering the president.
Trump has clearly got this impression from some of the people around him who - some of whom believe this or have been promoting these ideas for domestic reasons as part of a domestic debate in the United States for a long time. And of course, it grotesquely misreads what Europe is. It misunderstands even immigration. It misunderstands that, you know, European countries are - on any list you look at, have the highest living standards, are the safest places to live, have the highest education, have the - you know, have the best environmental policies. I mean, these are - this is a very attractive and powerful part of the world. And if the United States is now going to set itself against it and try to tear it apart, as I said, that will eventually have terrible results for the United States.
MARTIN: So on Monday, Leila - my colleague Leila - spoke with Alexandra de Hoop Scheffer, the president of the German Marshall Fund of the United States. Let's listen to what she had to say.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
ALEXANDRA DE HOOP SCHEFFER: What you are seeing live today is a new transatlantic bargain, where Europeans are accepting and integrating the idea that the transatlantic relationship is going to be more transactional, more conditional.
MARTIN: It sounds to me like she's saying that the president just finally said the quiet part out loud and that Europe has seen this coming and is already kind of adapting to this idea. Do you think that that's accurate?
APPLEBAUM: If the relationship is going to be more transactional, that's - and neutral, that's maybe the best possible outcome. But the NSS that was written implies that the U.S. will be actively seeking to dismantle European institutions and will be playing a role inside European politics, inside the domestic politics of European countries, which is - in a contradictory way is exactly the opposite of what it said it would be doing in the autocratic world, especially in the Middle East. And that would be a - as I said, that will backfire.
MARTIN: Yes. That's what I also want to ask you. How do you think Europe's going to respond to this if that is in fact the case?
APPLEBAUM: It will be a very negative response, and of course, that response is happening now. I mean, I don't know that people are going to say it in public. But a very wide range of European leaders, including many on the right, will be distressed by this. European Union means a lot to the economies of Europe. The idea that the U.S. would play a role in breaking it up will be perceived very negatively. And it's - you know, and of course, that will have consequences for Europe's willingness to help the U.S. in other situations and in other spheres.
MARTIN: What do you think this perspective that's outlined in this national security strategy and in the president's remarks - what does this mean for Ukraine?
APPLEBAUM: I mean, it's not good for Ukraine because it seems to favor Russia. So almost everything in the document reflects Russian strategy. The Russians also talk about a decline in Europe. They also want to break up the EU. They also seek to downplay the role of the U.S. in Europe. They also want to break up America in Europe. And so unfortunately, this document is very good for Russia.
MARTIN: Before we let you go - we only have 20 seconds here - are you surprised by any of this?
APPLEBAUM: No, I'm not entirely surprised. I mean, this is language that's been kicking around in the American far right for many years. And I heard it before the election, and I'm not surprised to hear it now.
MARTIN: That's Anne Applebaum. She's a staff writer for The Atlantic and a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian. Anne Applebaum, thank you so much.
APPLEBAUM: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
